Thursday, May 04, 2006

PAP buying voters, literally

PAP's Uniformed supporters at Tampines Stadium

Lee Hsien Loong (03 May 2006) :
"Right now we have Low Thia Khiang, Chiam See Tong, Steve Chia. We can deal with them. Suppose you had 10, 15, 20 opposition members in Parliament. Instead of spending my time thinking what is the right policy for Singapore, I'm going to spend all my time thinking what's the right way to fix them, to buy my supporters votes, how can I solve this week's problem and forget about next year's challenges?" - CNA

36 comments:

  1. Anonymous8:53 AM GMT+8

    It is interesting that LHL should say this. Isn't it his job to fix the issues that the constituents raise (be it opposition or PAP MPs)? If he cannot do this, he definitely is NOT the right person for the job. I see nothing except an admission on his part that he cannot meet the prerequisites expected from a country's leader. I seriously doubt his ability to steer the country forward. The truth is years of associating with sycophants and yes men has made him and the rest of the party soft. Any PAP MP who puts forward the argument that he/she can be the alternative voice in parliament would raise many doubts in anyone's mind. We have seen from past experience in the likes of Tan Soo Khoon and Ong Teng Cheong that this will NEVER work within the party. This is NOT a consultative government that the PAP is running, no matter how they like to spin the story.

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  2. Anonymous9:43 AM GMT+8

    I would like to thank our PM for agreeing that we do need opposition in the parliament. Without them, he can do whatever he likes in rising cost, GST, etc. With the opposition they are doing their job of check and balance. Look at NKF, it goes to show that it pays to have opposition in the parliament!!

    Also, if the policy are good for the people, why our PM is so scared about having oppositions critisizing them???

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  3. Anonymous9:57 AM GMT+8

    The political equivalent of gene pool renewal is an exposure to a diversity of ideas. A system with only one party that accustomed to having its way all the time, is going to after a few generations, display the same symptoms as inbred children.

    They have managed to stave off this for 40 years because in Lee Kuan Yew they had a peerless political mind. But it is also my opinion that he is the last great statesman left. Everyone else who has followed, are merely able administrators aided in their tasks by a very capable civil service.

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  4. Politics is about persuasion. Why should the PM be worried about wasting time dealing with his opposition? If he is convinced that his is the right course of action, why does he assume that reasonable men cannot be brought around to his point of view?

    To be without an opposition is a cop out. In the realm of politics, every idea should be put through the rigours of debate. The only issues that should be left to the discretion of the state are those of national security. Almost, almost everything else should be open to public discourse. And the press must be responsible for conducting the discourse by disseminating information in such a way that enables every S'porean to engage critically and intelligently.

    Failing this, not only are the standards of our politics lowered, but also that of our politicians.

    Come now, elections take longer than the world cup to come around. James Gomez should not be the biggest thing to come out of it.

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  5. what crap! which cave is he from? afraid to debate issues? why be there in the first place? NEXT!

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  6. for all the pap supporters, look at what the pm said. His heart felt comments! now i am really worried about our international standing.

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  7. What PM is trying to say is that "Continue to pay me three times more salary of President Bush, and I don't want to do the job like President Bush who has to deal with Democratic."

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  8. I used to be a supporter of PAP but I have lost respect for the men in whites for the way they are dishing out to Gomez and the oppositions. Are these trully gentlemens who have ethics and really want a fair contest? I am aware politic is dirty but this kind of things coming from a so-called top-notch people is unbelieveable and they are already sure to be the next government. If such "clever" people are so insecured I worry for the future of Singapore.

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  9. I am amazed that the "scholars" in the PAP are making really "silly" comments and statements. Have they really got brains to think carefully before they blurt out all the silly things that they have said so far.

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  10. I truely agree with Praveen that MM Lee is probably the only credible statesman left in the whole PAP party. However, with the changing economy and demands of the people, I feel the approaches taken by PAP is far from creative.

    Looking back, has PAP acheived anything beside what was already laid? I have my doubts....

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  11. As a million dollar paid PM, you should come out with policies and legislations that will convince and even please the opposition. Why do the ruling party think that any opposition parties will create trouble on any policies that the Govt makes? They still need to argue with grounds, after some research.

    Unless you want to come up with policies that will benefit your own parties (based on assumption), that why you need a strong mandate to support you? Govt never consult us on the casino issue, and do we think Govt will consult us on the means testing if you had a strong mandate?

    Having saying that, you really shoot yourself in the foot.

    As Chiam See Tong had said: Absolute Power Corrupts!

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  12. Dear Mr LHL,

    No.1: 10 or 20 oppositions in parliament do not make a government....the PAP still controls which is fine with most Singaporeans.

    No. 2: I am sure if they even get elected, they will busy making absolutely sure that their constituents are taken care of, otherwise they will not get in again the next time. In that case, your Ministers should be have a lot of time planning your long term policies and also your PAP backbenchers should be busy doing the same time, unless this is not the case, that is, after winning the seat or GRC, let the grassroots leaders or some employees do the dirty work.

    No. 3: These 10/20 non-First World Oppositions as your team have described won't be controlling any ministries for sure since they won’t have the majority and your other Acts to prevent such freak incidences from happening...

    No. 4: They will only be at most asking some questions or putting some suggestions however horrible or impractical in your opinion.

    No. 5: If your policies are good for the country, then I am sure that they must be good, eventually for the long term as well as meet all, if not cover at least some of the needs of the people for the short term to fix the problem. What is the use of building a First World Hospital that will forever improve the healthcare of Singaporeans when the people are dying on the streets, and the government won’t allow the use of the only drug that can treat it now. They will be long dead by the time the hospital is built. So any long term policies have to be balanced by solving some short-term solutions. I am sure you don’t need us, layman in the streets or any non-first world oppositions to remind this simple logic to your team.

    No. 6: As you, your father and SM Goh have always said that painful decisions have to be made to ensure our country’s long term survival, then I am sure you need to explain these policies to the people to gather support anyway.

    You do this amongst your Cabinet, your party, your think-tanks, your grassroot leaders and so on to gather feedback. How is it more difficult or more time is needed on your part to counter the opposition if their questions in Where are all your resources? Did they suddenly disappear when 10 or 20s opposition came into the Parliament?
    Parliament. I am sure with your army of think-tankers and scholars, they would have thought all the possible score points and stupid needle questions that may come up with any new policy, especially with controversial ones.

    You and your team have always being well prepared. So what is new?

    • Or are you really afraid that some questions that should not be asked becomes real possibilities,
    • or now you need to answer more questions since if the 10 or 20s speak - more chances to speak for the opposition;
    • or is it that now the oppositions as a bigger team can get more organized and not get pressured or laughed at by your team; by the way, you have said that parliament in Taiwan is not good for Singapore – we all know that they fight physically in parliament, but Singaporean don’t fight like that. However, is cynical laughter by your backbenchers as seen on TV a First World Politician quality?
    • What about really good suggestions that might come out from the opposition camp instead of from the PAP? It does not look good, right, since only PAP knows best.
    • Lastly of course, given your track record of legally analyzing all comments by your oppositions and dissents in the country, you should be very busy filing potential defamatory law suits or very busy throwing out “sue me, lah” propositions, rather than busy with making Singapore a better place for your subjects.

    Did Mr Khaw Staged A Wayang on “Means Testing” Policy?

    It is interesting to note the when Sylvia Lim questions the PAP candidates about the Means Testing, Mr Khaw now said it may not happen after all. So what is the fuss about we may ask? I am beginning to wonder if the Wayang Party has not highlighted to us about this, many of us would not even know about this likely to be implemented policy that might really impact us and our families, especially the poor.

    Subsidy? Big Questions Arised

    Mr Mah Bow Tan is another interesting politician… he said we should be happy if we only pay 10 % of the lift upgrading. How does this compared to Free Upgrading in some opposition wards? PAP said it is impossible to be done. Chiam did it, Low did it and God knows which new MP can do it Free?

    Losing Potential Ministers and Existing Ministers

    I think this problem will never come about if there is no GRC. Which Singaporean is that stupid not to vote in a Minister that is performing and takes care of his portfolio and his constituents?

    If each PAP Minister is to hand-hold a small of his PAP colleaques and contest the elections and each PAP Minister is consider performing, then hold elections when it seems not to give any choice to the people to select the candidates they want.

    I advocate single wards elections;
    • it is fairer;
    • it hones the character of the winning politician (just look at your father whom many respect), especially if he is new and fighting for himself – that in my opinion is the way for any new politician, PAP or its opposition to becoming a First-World Politician and not hiding under a mother hen.
    • That is the way for a fair exchange of competing ideas leading to a First World Parliament and a First World Government!

    100 Million Upgrading!

    This is money politics, PAP-style! It is easy to give since it is not your money. Try to give half your millions dollar Minister pay to add to this 100 million and see if it hurts where it hurts? I don’t think, such vote buying suggestions will come out so readily from our SM. I am very surprised that it came out from him.

    Asking your opponents to sue you…

    I am curiously waiting to see whether you will actually sue Low or Sylvia with their invitation to sue – a taste of own medicine?

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  13. Anonymous2:07 PM GMT+8

    Lee Hsien Loong seems to see the opposition as some kind of plague that would ruin the country. But has he ever wondered why despite setting up an "embargo" on Potong Pasir for so long, residents are still so supportive of Chiam See Tong? Could it be that Chiam has proven himself to be an MP for the average Singaporean, whereas the newer crop of "scholar" PAP MPs have forgotten their roots?

    And could Chiam have done a much better job than a lot of past PAP candidates, had he gotten the support he deserved from the government (which, in a democracy, shouldn't be controlled by a political party)? I really think so.

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  14. Anonymous2:07 PM GMT+8

    I think LHL has really shot himself in the foot this time with his comments, which were also published in the headlining article in this morning's issue of the Straits Times. This is as good as an admission Singaporeans are getting that the political leadership does not believe in democratic representation. It is a sign that yes-men are preferred in parliament.

    It is a universal axiom that the best criticisms often come from people who do not share you own interests and beliefs. How can the leadership improve if there was no one in parliament to rigourously challenge every proposal and policy? LHL's comments on Low Thia Khiang is also very telling. He (Lee) had implied that LTK's role in parliament has been one of throwing spanner in the machinery. This is a view which I strongly share with LHL. Hello?! IT IS THE JOB OF AN OPPOSITION MP TO THROW SPANNERS!! How can a leadership claim that a policy or proposal is good for the people if it cannot even overturn the questions from the opposition?

    So what have we here? Realpolitik or a sorry excuse for a public holiday?

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  15. Anonymous4:14 PM GMT+8

    I'm going to spend all my time thinking what's the right way to fix them, to buy my supporters votes, how can I solve this week's problem and forget about next year's challenges?" - CNA

    Hmm...seems like he is saying tht with opposition in ..then hard for him to do wht he wans...like...increase mininster pays, hiking transport fares, inflating HDB prices..etc.

    So it will also means tht he cannot continue to shut up true singapore plights in the parliment and most of all his master plan to make all singaporeans his slave.

    Squeezing more $$ out from citizens will be difficult. So he is asking us to vote for him and give him the mandate so he can bring us forward earlier to our grave by working us to death being slave to satisfy his greed.

    Majulah Singapura!!!

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  16. Anonymous4:26 PM GMT+8

    Show the Govt the true spirit of democracy! Exercise your votes wisely! Deny a poor leader of the mandate he wanted!

    Did Mr. Lee H.L have anyone preparing his speeches? If it is, can the script be proof-read before it is presented to Mr. Lee?

    I got a very rude shock when I read from ST (04May2006) that Mr. Lee said that Mr. Low T.K from WP "doesn't recommend policies, he doesn't critise policies, he doesn't suggest alternatives, he doesn't even put forward his own manifesto..."

    Is Mr. Lee H.L still living in the time-zone of Singapore-date 13th January 2006??? Can someone please inform Mr. Lee H.L that the WP Manifesto 2006 was first launched back in 14th January 2006!!! Someone please kindly update the PAP's timezone.

    I quote from CNA:
    Mr. Lee said during a lunch-time rally, "Right now we have Low Thia Khiang, Chiam See Tong, Steve Chia. We can deal with them. Suppose you had 10, 15, 20 opposition members in Parliament. Instead of spending my time thinking what is the right policy for Singapore, I'm going to spend all my time thinking what's the right way to fix them, to buy my supporters votes, how can I solve this week's problem and forget about next year's challenges?"

    Can someone kindly inform Mr. Lee that when a good leader formulates good policies:
    1. the leader does not need to buy the votes from the voters.
    2. the leader does not need to fix his opponents the way Mr. Lee said it, I felt as though he's so bloody insecure.
    3. the leader only need to draw up a policy that is really good, even his opponents subscribes to it.

    By virtue of the points mentioned above, the voters will naturally support the good leader who provides sound policies.

    When the average monthly income of a Singaporean pegged at about SGD$3,800++ (annual income of about SGD$45,600++)in Q4 2005, it is simply unsound to have Ministers' monthly pay to be more of an average Singaporeans' annual income!

    It's time to give Mr. Lee and his party a wake-up call. Monopoly kills creativity, and it seems so true when PAP has nothing much to talk about, 'cept for the JG saga.

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  17. Anonymous4:53 PM GMT+8

    I want to ask Singaporeans what kind of people have we become? What happened to the human decency, concern for integrity and standing up for our rights? For the selfish sake of material gains of lifts and wealth protection, Singaporeans have become Kiasi of the govt and are willingly led by their nose to exchange their soul for material gains. Some say patronisingly "Singapore is too small for politics. there is only room for pragmatics. Economics is all that matters". It's not new but I found this very disturbing hearing it fm well educated thinking beings.

    On the surface it seems to make sense. But on the other hand, that simplistic line can apply to other countries too as any dictatorial power-hungry ruling party can claim - oh ou country is too poor to have politics, or this country is too big to have real democracy...or this country has too many problems to have freedom of choice.!" But the first world governments dont do that! so what is it abt Singapore that's so special? It's all abt buying into a manipulated political story spun by those in control and supported by kia si people who want to protect and grow their wealth.

    search your conscience Singaporeans and ask if that is not the truth?? are you not closing a blind eye to the grey areas to the way things are done?

    Isn't using country funds and tax payers money (your money and mine) to bribe threaten us citizens and to withold upgrading benefits an integrity and ethical issue?? how can the Pot call the kettle black when it is less than white itself?

    With no real power nor sense of ownership in our own country, more and more Singaporeans are feeling disenfranchised and living like an expat here with no real sense of pride. Life is not just abt pragmatics but also a balanced dose of idealism . That's what makes us different from animals and robots. it's not all abt jobs and money, but abt enriching our spirit and soul and self actualisation.

    Those who say life here is all abt pragmatics are living in an extreme form of idealism themselves. What do I mean? These people are buying into the sales pitch of status quo "peace" and wanting to live a life of paradise with no ups and downs in a fish bowl where everything is controlled and managed and where their economy and wealth is "protected". But is that really life? is that really living? This is not how the rest of the world lives

    Singapore is truly sad in creating a false nirvana away from the rest of the real global world. if this continues, many young people (the average folks who r not rich) will find it harder and harder to fit into and compete in the real world out of Singapore. is it any wonder why other countries view us in a mocking way? the Arabs describe us as a nail hammered halfway into a block of wood. The mainland and overseas Chinese think we are stupid and not street wise. How did the situation get so critical that we are mocked at by other nations increasingly? and recently, a European businessman pointed pointed out to me that he was shocked to find that MOE's motto is "Moulding the future of our nation!" as it means manipulating minds instead of nurturing the best in our young to be what they can be.

    Those who say life here is all abt pragmatics are living in an extreme form of idealism themselves. What do I mean? These people are buying into the sales pitch of status quo "peace" and wanting to live a life of paradise with no ups and downs in a fish bowl where everything is controlled and managed and where their economy and wealth is "protected". But is that really life? is that really living? This is not how the rest of the world lives. And pls spare the comparisons with 3rd world countries, but compare us to similar First World developed nations.


    At the end of the day, we need to ask ourselves what does Singapore mean to us? Does PAP really equal prospertiy? Are they so indispensable that we will disappear into abject misery without them? Will the country collapse with more freedom to exercise our rights? Yes jobs and money are important, but so are other things in life like standing up for our beliefs. What price are we paying for this so called "prosperity" of the pocket when we are so poor and empty in our spirit and souls. It is a sorry state if this is what we have to still look forward to in the future.

    As a developed nation, it's time that singaporeans grow up mentally and spritually and start questioning according to their conscience. Do what your heart says is right and do not let fear sway you away from this. There is nothing to fear but fear itself. ut to me that he was shocked to find that MOE's motto is "Moulding the future of our nation!" as it means manipulating minds instead of nurturing the best in our young to be what they can be.

    At the end of the day, we need to ask ourselves what does Singapore mean to us? Does PAP really equal prospertiy? Are they so indispensable that we will die without them? Will the country collapse with more freedom to execise our rights? What price are we paying for this so called "prosperity" of the pocket when we are so poor and empty in our spirit and souls. It is a sorry state if this is what we have to still look forward to for the future.

    As a developed nation, my one sincere wish is for Singaporeans to be less selfish, to mature spiritually and start questioning according to their conscience. Do what your heart says is right and do not let fear sway you away from this.

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  18. Anonymous5:09 PM GMT+8

    Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 1:08 pm Post subject:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    If members can recall GE1991 led by Mr Goh Chok Tong in his first GE rally, the PAP promised Singaporeans "A Swiss Standard of Living by 1999" in its manifesto.

    Well, 1999 came and went, and for the past 15 years nobody brought up the subject; the PAP did not give any feedback to the voters in the subsequent GEs. They assume that the voters have forgotten. Even the Straits Times has kept quiet about it all along.

    We all know the GE1991 election promise was never delivered. Why must the PAP chose to keep quiet?

    How can PM Lee said that "We never promise what we can't deliver" (CNA News 10.00pm, 28 Apr 06).

    I will most interested to hear the PAP's response to this point - before the polling day.

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  19. Anonymous5:33 PM GMT+8

    Our Gov said this election is very important to all Singaporean. I strongly agreed cos i m a
    Singaporean it concern me but Y ?? I m not given a fair chance to VOTE ??? Can't for once the whole nation vote together br it PAP/SAP/WP or etc... Answer is "NO" again Y ??? Cos this is our GOV set and said here come the Question : DID U PICK THEM TO BE OUR GOV ? ? When I was born they are already the GOV, till today they are still our GOV but never once the GOV ask me, DO I WANT THEM TO BE OUR GOV !!! Be fair to all Singaporean if is so important the election let the whole nation vote...... What I wantfrom my GOV is to show me all they know beside just leading and 1st GOV must open their ear to listen to me cos I m a Singaporean I have my right to pick my GOVERNMNENT.

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  20. Anonymous7:49 PM GMT+8

    Next Better Player Please, If no guts to play along out you go. I learn this when I am 3 years old.

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  21. Anonymous8:14 PM GMT+8

    WHAT!!! Who said that? Who said that Mr Chiam or Mr Low should be recommending national policies for Singapore? Are you serious?

    Mr Chiam and Mr Low are paid an MP's allowance. To recommend policies, you should pay them Minister's salary.

    Mr Chiam and Mr Low are hindered by PAP and govt civil servants in everything they do. To recommend national policies, you need all the civil servants to give them the facts and figures and do their research.

    Need I say more? By now, everybody must understand how stupid that statement is.

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  22. If you cannot manage, please give up the Finance Minister Post, Y die die must still hold on to it???? I think every clear mind know the answer.

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  23. Does he means a overpaid by world standard PM of Singapore can only handle not more then 2 opposition ? which means he's not up to world standard as a leader. he's overpaid as compared to USA & UK but he can only handle not more then >2 opposition...what a joke !

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  24. One way to really wake them up is to vote LHL out of AMK this election!

    Well we can vote for him in the next election and he can come in the next term as PM, and only then will he toned down and do more for Singaporeans.

    No PM how?

    They have the entire PAP, Ministerial and government machinery to keep it going... Besides MM or SM can be caretaker PM for one term. LHL can wayang behind the scene

    So what title to accord LHL, hmmm... lets see... How about "MC" - Ministerial Consultant.

    Next term, he can PM again and I am sure he will do a better job next time.

    ThaSING2

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  25. I would like to remind Christian participants that they are responsible for their actions not only to their party, the peoples but most importantly to God. I would like to urge that all must remember not to oppress the weak and poor, and for Catholics especially, be reminded to keep Holy Communion sacred, this Sunday.

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  26. There are many comments as to why the PAP is not interested in debating issues. I think it is not that they don't want to debate issues but they don't want to debate with the intellectually inferior non-PAP members. PAP was started by LKY and he is very clearly an elitist (remember his strong belief that all non graduate women should not bear babies cos they will turn out stupid!!!). The system they put in place is meant to groom the intellectually superior breed that is of the same stock as the LEE family. From streaming in schools, scholarships to the smart, fast track career for the scholars, high flyers as PAP candidates.... the entire system has only one purpose, to nuture and reward the smart (#@s). Those who are not intellectually capable are the discards of PAP society, doomed for the normal stream in schools, spend your whole life working for the smart people, tied down by debts (expensive housing) so that you are too tired to even think about challenging the PAP....
    Those who are not selected for the PAP path are the majority, and it is this majority that suffers the most with all the price increases and job restructuring. Does the PAP cares? Of course yes, but only for the purpose of election. Once it is over, they will implement a slew of harsh policies, only to give some sweeteners come election time. The most amazing thing is that they even managed to declare that their harsh policies are good for the majority. Yes they are good, but only for the rich and smart people who are able to make a living elsewhere anyway.
    So if you are not the PAP endorsed smart people, then you are better off not voting for them

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  27. Anonymous1:14 AM GMT+8

    Correction, be fair to LHL. He said he can handle up to 3 opp candidates, not 2.

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  28. Anonymous1:16 AM GMT+8

    So when more than 3 opp candidates, someone must do his job.

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  29. Anonymous2:07 AM GMT+8

    PM Lee has definitely swung the votes...the other way, with his "how do I fix the Opposition? how do I buy my supporters votes..." comments.

    1) How do I fix the Opposition? Is this really what we want? Fix the Opposition and leave the people in the lurch?!?!?!

    2) How do I buy my supporters votes? If you're an established minister leading by example, would you even need to buy votes?!?!?!

    I can't believe the PM has said this. I guarantee you, my votes went in the opposite direction after this speech.

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  30. Anonymous2:49 AM GMT+8

    Christians are living in their own worlds. I don't expect them to make responsible decisions, since they are too noble to care about politics.. After all, only those who believe gets to go to heaven.. So unfair.. Yet, sounds like P*P too...

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  31. Reproduced below with permission:-

    Recently, my white MP,

    Knok on my door, and very kek ki..

    Say 'I've worked so hard, so vote for me',

    'Or rubbish won't be cleared, in your vicinty'..

    I said 'Dear MP of my GRC',

    'Dun remember u, so please pardon me'..

    'I only saw you on TV',

    'Dozing off and jiak liao bee'..

    Last GE I voted for thee,

    2% up in GST..

    Cut CPF and up utility,

    Are still very clear in my memory..

    5 years later, then you come to me,

    Fresh from your slumber of ivory..

    Say that only, you can help me,

    Escape from a life of poverty..

    Just take a drive on CTE,

    Count the number, of all the gantries..

    Or squeeze a ride on the MRT,

    That has not been cleared for ye..

    My life since the last GE,

    Has been downhill though I voted PAP..

    If I vote the same for your sleeping spree,

    I can expect the same misery..

    So this time round, I vote for somebody,

    Who will kachiao you, to productivity..

    Forms fill wrong, no big deal to me,

    If there's someone to speak up for ah bee..

    So dear MP of GRC,

    If life no improve, vote u cho simi?

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  32. Anonymous2:02 PM GMT+8

    LHL's press secretary explains that what he ment was different. Dont we know the meaning. Caun't we understand English. Can he rephrase his words anytime.

    If he cannot even tell what he want to tell rightly then can he be the PM with a million dollar salary. I am sure we can get a very good PM who can really mean what he say may be for around 10 - 15 K salary. With this kind of personality do you all think our economy can grow in the globalized and highly competitive and dynamic world? No wonder after so many years from 1997 we havent recoverd. It looks like the root cause of the economy performing badly is the P*P. It is high time we realize it.

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  33. Anonymous3:34 PM GMT+8

    Of course he can rephrase what he said anytime and anyway! Who he is and who those oppositions are? I do not like Chee, but has he been having like a hooligan? Does he deserves to be named in this manner? Decades ago when one of the WP's leader was in parliament, who shot up from his seat to ask this leader of WP to keep quiet and sit down? Parliament!!!! Ha! This particular person was the only one who can make the retired PM, the then SM and now MM's blood boils to the extremely! I salute you, JBJ!

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  34. Anonymous6:30 PM GMT+8

    salute JBJ!

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  35. Please be grateful!! Made the right choice! Vote wisely.

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  36. Anonymous9:29 PM GMT+8

    Anonymous said...
    quote: And the young pap forum was shutdown since yesterday.... lamer... their forum also full of hatred of pap... how to win....

    ----------
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    It is located at:
    http://deluxecoffeeclub.com

    kindly support our efforts. Thank you.

    ReplyDelete